There's a lot here to unpack and we could WRITE BOOKS back and forth discussing whether or not a fantasy *remains* a true fantasy with modern language, where the line is, and who cares.
Personally, I am torn and I think it often shows up in my rough drafts. On the one hand, I enjoy writing purple, especially when the heavy hitting lines are restrained for the right timing. When I think about the modern reader, though, I consider how many people actually still reading have the attention spans for such writing.
Truth be told, I don't love pretentious folks that crone on and on about what makes writing objectively "good" even if we do have standards for craft. But, I will say I am partial to a certain amount of lyrical/poetic styling that I believe defines "art."
In my mind, "art" and "writing" are separate, as any good story can be told in a variety of ways, but where "art" is concerned, the story is not necessarily required.
You know me, I tend to write on the artistic side.
So, modern fantasy writers have many challenges to face when it comes to readers, but making things "sound old" seems to be a dying art. And often, "sounding old" can simply be exposure to a word that might be archaic, even if only by a decade.
I absolutely loved how you broke down the germanic vs. latin roots here. This is phenomenal work. I felt like I learned a lot reading through it and realized that I need to be working harder to study my own craft.
Reading your reply, I realize (though I am glad you gleaned things from it) I came down too hard on simply saying “old = good”.
What I mean to imply is that if fantasy is set in a time older than ours, I think there is at least a slightly objective level at which one could claim the writing should sound older.
To your point, the degree of oldness can vary drastically. There are several styles that would take a genius of the century to pull off in a way that any of us in the modern era would want to read.
So, agreeing with you on that true fantasy is not just “fantasy that sounds old”.
Can I suggest that what your trying to get at isn't necessarily "old." It's "other." I think a feeling of antiquity is a part of that, but it's not the only part of what your describing. I find that even incorporating non-american idioms gives a piece a different air which is decidedly unmodern (though it is modern, it's just not modern american... i'm sure this effect would be ruined for my british readers). As the man said "sounding old" can simply be exposure to a word that might be archaic, even if only by a decade." God knows our culture has created plenty of those.
Sometimes, when I read or watch historical pieces, it somehow scratches a similar itch to fantasy. The only similarity is that both fantasy and history describe a world that is no longer or never was present, i.e. not a part of my lived experience or even potentially a part of my lived experience. It is always other, set apart. Maybe that's why Yarros and similar feel so wrong to so many--it's decidedly not set apart from our world in any way except for the sex dragons because we do not have sex dragons. And yet, in so many ways we do have sex dragons, this is my TedTalk...
I definitely didn't get "old is good" from this piece. I was just discussing my disdain for people who are like "only fantasy written like X can be good" or whatever.
I don’t think you understand that you have just ruined my life becuase now I NEED you to write a reworked version of fourth wing. Like, it is now a necessity like breathing or say, craving toxic men
I HAVE studied both Elfland and that video on three authors' Germanic roots, actually. We learned from the same sources, you and I!
It's also refreshing that I get to see a writing essay that dares to analyze The Actual Text Itself word-per-word instead of being lost at the sea of Vague Theme Gesturing, so complex yet also so useless, unlike yours here, which is simple and practical.
I'm writing Sci-Fi, but it does have a mythico-religious section since the main antagonist is a cult leader robot. Now I know how he should preach to his disciples, human or robot alike. Thank you!
Great sources, so much in that essay, and then of course a language is endlessly explorable.
Appreciate the reply, glad it helped and yeah, I love trying to apply the learning to specifics. I run the risk of doing it wrong 😂 but at least, if done well, it can benefit those who reads it.
I write myself into these tiresome corners more often than my sense would tell me, were I to pause but briefly and ask it. And thus, each simple tale is wrung out long and torturous in the writing; the iron of every line must be wrought, true and proper for its time, in the age's forge.
And here my american ass was just putting on european accents and calling it a day. Though, for real, that is how I go about this. I hate being that writer, but: read old shit. Go find one of those fat Norton Anthologies of Stodgy Dead Men or something and drown yourself in some Johnson or other essayists. Hear them when you write. See how they construct their sentences (the multi-clausal sentence will definitely feel old school in your fantasy novel). I think this is important because not only are you learning the rules of how they wrote, but you're learning how they thought.
There's a lot here to unpack and we could WRITE BOOKS back and forth discussing whether or not a fantasy *remains* a true fantasy with modern language, where the line is, and who cares.
Personally, I am torn and I think it often shows up in my rough drafts. On the one hand, I enjoy writing purple, especially when the heavy hitting lines are restrained for the right timing. When I think about the modern reader, though, I consider how many people actually still reading have the attention spans for such writing.
Truth be told, I don't love pretentious folks that crone on and on about what makes writing objectively "good" even if we do have standards for craft. But, I will say I am partial to a certain amount of lyrical/poetic styling that I believe defines "art."
In my mind, "art" and "writing" are separate, as any good story can be told in a variety of ways, but where "art" is concerned, the story is not necessarily required.
You know me, I tend to write on the artistic side.
So, modern fantasy writers have many challenges to face when it comes to readers, but making things "sound old" seems to be a dying art. And often, "sounding old" can simply be exposure to a word that might be archaic, even if only by a decade.
I absolutely loved how you broke down the germanic vs. latin roots here. This is phenomenal work. I felt like I learned a lot reading through it and realized that I need to be working harder to study my own craft.
Reading your reply, I realize (though I am glad you gleaned things from it) I came down too hard on simply saying “old = good”.
What I mean to imply is that if fantasy is set in a time older than ours, I think there is at least a slightly objective level at which one could claim the writing should sound older.
To your point, the degree of oldness can vary drastically. There are several styles that would take a genius of the century to pull off in a way that any of us in the modern era would want to read.
So, agreeing with you on that true fantasy is not just “fantasy that sounds old”.
Can I suggest that what your trying to get at isn't necessarily "old." It's "other." I think a feeling of antiquity is a part of that, but it's not the only part of what your describing. I find that even incorporating non-american idioms gives a piece a different air which is decidedly unmodern (though it is modern, it's just not modern american... i'm sure this effect would be ruined for my british readers). As the man said "sounding old" can simply be exposure to a word that might be archaic, even if only by a decade." God knows our culture has created plenty of those.
Sometimes, when I read or watch historical pieces, it somehow scratches a similar itch to fantasy. The only similarity is that both fantasy and history describe a world that is no longer or never was present, i.e. not a part of my lived experience or even potentially a part of my lived experience. It is always other, set apart. Maybe that's why Yarros and similar feel so wrong to so many--it's decidedly not set apart from our world in any way except for the sex dragons because we do not have sex dragons. And yet, in so many ways we do have sex dragons, this is my TedTalk...
In some sense, yes! Especially the last part, which touches on theme, it’s arguable that doesn’t really make something feel old, per-say.
The focus of this article is on stepping towards that “other” through sounding “old”.
As it relates to fantasy, I think you nearly MUST sound old to achieve the “other”, as to sound modern is to feel rather the same.
I definitely didn't get "old is good" from this piece. I was just discussing my disdain for people who are like "only fantasy written like X can be good" or whatever.
Ah, fair. We share that disdain. As it turns out, people can like things and I have no say in it.
I don’t think you understand that you have just ruined my life becuase now I NEED you to write a reworked version of fourth wing. Like, it is now a necessity like breathing or say, craving toxic men
hahahaha
So…. That’s a no? 😭
It’s a let me finish Thrain first 😭
Ok, write faster then.
Oh and also finish kings scribe please.
I HAVE studied both Elfland and that video on three authors' Germanic roots, actually. We learned from the same sources, you and I!
It's also refreshing that I get to see a writing essay that dares to analyze The Actual Text Itself word-per-word instead of being lost at the sea of Vague Theme Gesturing, so complex yet also so useless, unlike yours here, which is simple and practical.
I'm writing Sci-Fi, but it does have a mythico-religious section since the main antagonist is a cult leader robot. Now I know how he should preach to his disciples, human or robot alike. Thank you!
Great sources, so much in that essay, and then of course a language is endlessly explorable.
Appreciate the reply, glad it helped and yeah, I love trying to apply the learning to specifics. I run the risk of doing it wrong 😂 but at least, if done well, it can benefit those who reads it.
I write myself into these tiresome corners more often than my sense would tell me, were I to pause but briefly and ask it. And thus, each simple tale is wrung out long and torturous in the writing; the iron of every line must be wrought, true and proper for its time, in the age's forge.
So many people give "fantasy speak" flak but you know what? I don’t care. I LOVE FANTASY SPEAK 🗣🗣
And here my american ass was just putting on european accents and calling it a day. Though, for real, that is how I go about this. I hate being that writer, but: read old shit. Go find one of those fat Norton Anthologies of Stodgy Dead Men or something and drown yourself in some Johnson or other essayists. Hear them when you write. See how they construct their sentences (the multi-clausal sentence will definitely feel old school in your fantasy novel). I think this is important because not only are you learning the rules of how they wrote, but you're learning how they thought.
Second this; you have to be exposed to what was once old to understand which aspects you want to use, thereby infusing your own style with that age.